the beautiful thing about being in the body of Christ is that we are all connected (more on this later). i am not alone in my questions and fears. there are others who have been there and wrestled with answers of their own. and we can help each other! like mike said in part one, "we're all in this together" (from HSM...yeah!). and we are. isn't that beautiful? so, part two. from the brilliant nate berends of seattle, washington (see below). he is a dear friend of the heart whom i had the pleasure of acquainting @ SPU. like mike, i got to know him better working together in university ministries. he is truly one of my most favorite human beings on the planet. below is an exchange between nate and myself on family, eternity, children and such. hopefully it will spur questions in your heart and cause you to go on the hunt for answers of your own.
My request: "Last night I was talking to a friend of mine. I told him I thought we had really similar religious beliefs but it was proving to not be the case @ all. So I was asking what exactly he believes – are you a Christian? Why? What does that mean to you? Why do you go to church? How do you want to raise your family?
So that led to him asking me the same and I was appalled @ what came out of my mouth. Appalled simply because I’ve never taken the time to verbalize some of those things. So I was talking – and I got to the “How do you want to raise your family” issue. And it really drew me to tears. I talked about how there’s really no need for a marriage relationship in heaven but your children are the one things you do get to take with you. They are the one thing you come into this world without and get to take with you into eternity. They are your legacy. Which is why it’s so important for me to be able to be a mother – to raise my children to LOVE, to be open, accepting, compassionate. To go to church because they feel drawn into engaging with the body of Christ. I want to pour my life into raising my children which might be why I’m having such a hard time picking a career path right now.
So, with all that said, am I right? I have said these things with conviction, and I truly believe them but, am I right? Don’t we get to take our children with us into Kingdom Come? Is there not marriage in heaven?
So that led to him asking me the same and I was appalled @ what came out of my mouth. Appalled simply because I’ve never taken the time to verbalize some of those things. So I was talking – and I got to the “How do you want to raise your family” issue. And it really drew me to tears. I talked about how there’s really no need for a marriage relationship in heaven but your children are the one things you do get to take with you. They are the one thing you come into this world without and get to take with you into eternity. They are your legacy. Which is why it’s so important for me to be able to be a mother – to raise my children to LOVE, to be open, accepting, compassionate. To go to church because they feel drawn into engaging with the body of Christ. I want to pour my life into raising my children which might be why I’m having such a hard time picking a career path right now.
So, with all that said, am I right? I have said these things with conviction, and I truly believe them but, am I right? Don’t we get to take our children with us into Kingdom Come? Is there not marriage in heaven?
So I’m writing you for help. For assurance. Like I said, I know I’m asking you for more than a quick e-mail soothing my feathers. And I will reply to what you’ve written below. It’s beautiful – all your writing is.
And thanks. For being Nathanael Henry Berends – a person I can come to with fears and questions like these."
And thanks. For being Nathanael Henry Berends – a person I can come to with fears and questions like these."
get ready for his response. it's incredible. it helps and it makes sense. feel free to get to know nate better @ nateberends.com.
His reply: "As I understand it, the real root of your surprise was in considering the role that family plays in the afterlife. I read your message to suggest that you are a bit uncertain about the way that you, your ancestors and your progeny, will all relate in the hereafter.
It is important in discussions of this nature that we not confuse what we believe scripture says with the things that it actually does say. Frank Spina was a strong advocate of a very simple idea: We are to speak boldly about that which the bible speaks. Likewise, we are to remain silent on the matters about which the bible does not speak. It is not reasonable for us to write scripture ourselves. We cannot simply say that because the Bible does not speak to a certain point, we are safe in assuming one thing or the other! Rather, if the Bible does not say it, we simply cannot know. And we all must be careful about controlling our own deity complex and the deep desire to transform our own wishful thinking into normative Christian belief.
This is the challenge of theology: to make sound inferences based on what we know of God's revelation to us.
With this said, there are plenty of places in the Bible that speak both of heaven and of family. And there are connections that we can make, I think.
And because there are a few things going on here, let's start at the beginning.
Already in Genesis, almost as soon as we see people, we see death. And from some of the earliest times, we see the Bible speak about people being rejoined with their ancestors after death. Abraham, Issac, Jacob and others were all spoken of as being "gathered unto [their] people." Even Moses, before his death was instructed to climb a mountain and look upon the promised land, at which point God said he would be gathered unto his people.
Considering these few examples, we can see that there is biblical precedent for the notion that heaven is a place of reunion. Heaven is indeed a place of meeting! This is something that is affirmed throughout scripture.
But what will we look like in heaven? What did Jesus look like when he came back? What about Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration? In both cases, their likeness was still recognizable by those still on earth. Peter immediately recognized both Moses and Elijah, even though he would have never met either one of them on earth!
The Bible speaks of the coming redemption as making all things new; not of making all new things. In this, there is some sense that all things will be restored to their perfect condition. What our perfected selves will look like is hard to say. But in several places in the Bible we do find people returning from heaven in a recognizable form.
This brings us to the real crux of your dilemma. How does family play into this?
Certainly we must begin by considering the nature of our human relationships. Have you seen God in others? Have others seen God in you? Have you ever known the sacramental nature of human relationships?
We can define sacramentality as the idea of something commonplace becoming a conduit for the divine. Considering this, have you ever known a common relationship in your life that has been capable of revealing to you elements of the divine?
I pray your answer is yes. I am confident that you know this type of sacramental relationship.
If this is the case, we can firmly declare that there is such a thing as a relationship that is of God.
Do we agree here?
If we agree on this point, then we are declaring that there is something holy about relationships. Relationships hold within them the potential for redemption. Because of this, I am confident that we should not diminish the value of our various relationships, familial or otherwise.
But...
There is a catch, and it is a big catch.
What is the purpose of heaven? What's it for?
The Bible is relatively clear in the idea that heaven is a place where believers will gather in worship and glory for eternity. Heaven is a place where we will be reunited with, and redeemed by, Jesus Christ. The sole purpose of Heaven is unity with God, and nothing else.
And this might be what Jesus was beginning to explain when he didn't even wait for a man to bury his father, instead telling him that there is no time! Led the dead bury their own dead!
Jesus' teaching on the Kingdom began to blur the lines of what family is.
No longer was your family a matter of biology. It became a matter of adoption.
So why do I even mention this?
There are a few reasons:
1) When it comes to heaven, we don't know very much. When it comes to God, it sometimes it seems like we know even less. Because of this, I am not confident in saying that I have any better of an idea than you.
2) There is biblical precedent for Heavenly recognition. There is reason for us to hope that our Heavenly selves look somewhat like our earthly selves.
3) The Kingdom of God is more than large enough to include within it the idea of family. But it is augmented. Family is less about blood relation, and, as I mentioned earlier, more about adoption.
4) It seems like perfection, which is what we are told Heaven embodies, does not leave room for disunity. There is no place for favorites in heaven. If this is true, then Heaven will not be filled with many reunited families, but with one, single family. We, as the children of God, will all come before the throne as one body.
And that is perhaps a good place to leave the matter for now.
I cannot say that you are right or you are wrong. It seems to me that the main thrust of scripture leans toward the loss of this earthly idea of family.
In the face of the gathered children of God, I don't exactly know how earthly families play into that at all. When all people live in perfect unity with God, our earthly notions of family might seem to dissolve away.
But maybe I'm all wet."
It is important in discussions of this nature that we not confuse what we believe scripture says with the things that it actually does say. Frank Spina was a strong advocate of a very simple idea: We are to speak boldly about that which the bible speaks. Likewise, we are to remain silent on the matters about which the bible does not speak. It is not reasonable for us to write scripture ourselves. We cannot simply say that because the Bible does not speak to a certain point, we are safe in assuming one thing or the other! Rather, if the Bible does not say it, we simply cannot know. And we all must be careful about controlling our own deity complex and the deep desire to transform our own wishful thinking into normative Christian belief.
This is the challenge of theology: to make sound inferences based on what we know of God's revelation to us.
With this said, there are plenty of places in the Bible that speak both of heaven and of family. And there are connections that we can make, I think.
And because there are a few things going on here, let's start at the beginning.
Already in Genesis, almost as soon as we see people, we see death. And from some of the earliest times, we see the Bible speak about people being rejoined with their ancestors after death. Abraham, Issac, Jacob and others were all spoken of as being "gathered unto [their] people." Even Moses, before his death was instructed to climb a mountain and look upon the promised land, at which point God said he would be gathered unto his people.
Considering these few examples, we can see that there is biblical precedent for the notion that heaven is a place of reunion. Heaven is indeed a place of meeting! This is something that is affirmed throughout scripture.
But what will we look like in heaven? What did Jesus look like when he came back? What about Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration? In both cases, their likeness was still recognizable by those still on earth. Peter immediately recognized both Moses and Elijah, even though he would have never met either one of them on earth!
The Bible speaks of the coming redemption as making all things new; not of making all new things. In this, there is some sense that all things will be restored to their perfect condition. What our perfected selves will look like is hard to say. But in several places in the Bible we do find people returning from heaven in a recognizable form.
This brings us to the real crux of your dilemma. How does family play into this?
Certainly we must begin by considering the nature of our human relationships. Have you seen God in others? Have others seen God in you? Have you ever known the sacramental nature of human relationships?
We can define sacramentality as the idea of something commonplace becoming a conduit for the divine. Considering this, have you ever known a common relationship in your life that has been capable of revealing to you elements of the divine?
I pray your answer is yes. I am confident that you know this type of sacramental relationship.
If this is the case, we can firmly declare that there is such a thing as a relationship that is of God.
Do we agree here?
If we agree on this point, then we are declaring that there is something holy about relationships. Relationships hold within them the potential for redemption. Because of this, I am confident that we should not diminish the value of our various relationships, familial or otherwise.
But...
There is a catch, and it is a big catch.
What is the purpose of heaven? What's it for?
The Bible is relatively clear in the idea that heaven is a place where believers will gather in worship and glory for eternity. Heaven is a place where we will be reunited with, and redeemed by, Jesus Christ. The sole purpose of Heaven is unity with God, and nothing else.
And this might be what Jesus was beginning to explain when he didn't even wait for a man to bury his father, instead telling him that there is no time! Led the dead bury their own dead!
Jesus' teaching on the Kingdom began to blur the lines of what family is.
No longer was your family a matter of biology. It became a matter of adoption.
So why do I even mention this?
There are a few reasons:
1) When it comes to heaven, we don't know very much. When it comes to God, it sometimes it seems like we know even less. Because of this, I am not confident in saying that I have any better of an idea than you.
2) There is biblical precedent for Heavenly recognition. There is reason for us to hope that our Heavenly selves look somewhat like our earthly selves.
3) The Kingdom of God is more than large enough to include within it the idea of family. But it is augmented. Family is less about blood relation, and, as I mentioned earlier, more about adoption.
4) It seems like perfection, which is what we are told Heaven embodies, does not leave room for disunity. There is no place for favorites in heaven. If this is true, then Heaven will not be filled with many reunited families, but with one, single family. We, as the children of God, will all come before the throne as one body.
And that is perhaps a good place to leave the matter for now.
I cannot say that you are right or you are wrong. It seems to me that the main thrust of scripture leans toward the loss of this earthly idea of family.
In the face of the gathered children of God, I don't exactly know how earthly families play into that at all. When all people live in perfect unity with God, our earthly notions of family might seem to dissolve away.
But maybe I'm all wet."
thanks for reading through this. part three to come.
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